Welcome to the Church of the Painful Truth
You shall know the Truth and the Truth shall make you mad...that is, if you are a Calvinist.
Well, I thought I would post what I consider to be one of the best sermons I have ever heard on the subject of Calvinism. Mostly due to the delivery of Dr. Ergun Caner, President of the Liberty University Theological Seminary in Lynchburg, VA. He is known as the "pitbull" of the SBC due to his passion for the Word of God.
I am truly amazed at the buzz in the Calvinist community over Dr. Caner. I am sure it is his controversial approach to speaking the Word. Which is exactly why I like this guy. Falwell and Caner make the ultimate team of giving out the truth, whether you like it or not.
Without further ado, I give you the best quality version on the net of the sermon entitled, "Why I am Predestined NOT to be a Hypercalvinist". To steal another line (the first being my opening statement to this post) from one of my favorite talk radio hosts, Neal Boortz, "Welcome to the church of the painful Truth!"
Click Now for Video - Ergun Caner - "Why I am Predestined NOT to be a Hypercalvinist"
- EIHM
posted by ErgunIsMyHero at 7:22 AM
7 Comments:
EIMH,
I'm curious about this post. In what way(s) do you "consider [this sermon] to be one of the best sermons [you] have ever heard on the subject of Calvinism"?
Perhaps it is as you mention in the next sentence: "mostly due to the delivery of Dr. Ergun Caner..." Do you mean you consider this the best sermon you have heard on Calvinism because of the way Dr. Caner delivered it (i.e., he was really forceful, passionate, pit-bullish etc.)?
Or do you consider it best because he told it like it really is - that is, his understanding of Calvinism (specifically its errors) was right on, and his handling of the Scriptures was both true to their meaning and to the applications he made?
I'm just wondering exactly what you mean when you make the above statement. Thanks.
8:38 AM
I loved the no-holds-barred, in your face delivery of the message. I found all he said to be true to my understanding of the scriptures - which I will be the first to admit, is not the greatest or the most indepth.
Maybe I like his style, because I am not naturally as up front as he is. I am not naturally the kind of person that just tells it like it is.
Let me get off subject for just a second, though it will come full circle:
I wept this yesterday, like a stinkin' baby...it was the first time that I read the email correspondance between Drs. Caner and White. And I WEPT! I was appalled at the unrelenting spirit of Dr. White. Man! And I get accused of acting out in the other blogs...but what I saw was 10x worse than anything I ever did. It was brutal. I do not see Dr. White's behavior as anything better than what you guys are calling out on Caner's sermon on H-Calvinism.
then, I read a comment by Deb Jones...a blogger and Liberty Student. I checked her blog out and then I found her on facebook. OMGoodness! She had opened facebook forums taunting Dr. Caner to quit being a "chicken" and debate Ascol and White. You may also note that she was the founder of the forum/group with her self-proclaimed title, “Calvinist Queen.” What a mockery even to you. And then, when I read her blog…there were several adult men/pastors writing “way to go!” comments on her space! I wrote my own, letting her know that if she had a problem with Caner or Falwell for that matter, it would probably do her good to stop spending money here at LU. And then I rebuked the pastors saying that it was not right for them to be there and it could hurt their ministry.
Seriously – is this the type of student you want to create? One that shows NO civility or respect for a man who should be considered our elder? I was berated by another blogger who said that we should be able to question and argue. And he disagreed that Ms. Jones should learn respect for him…OK, hold on…wasn’t there a whole posting devoted to the Shepherds being outed and that the congregation should not have the power to get rid of them…isn’t it all in the same spirit. Should these students be allowed to call out Dr. Caner disrespectfully? Am I right or wrong Mopheos?
So it got my fire going again. Though, I am being very tame on the founders blog right now. I have plenty of questions and have been submitting them in a very orderly and thought out fashion...I promise! :) You’d be proud. Some of them I will probably post here.
6:19 AM
Ok, that was helpful - you enjoyed his no-holds-barred, in-your-face style. I think I can understand that, as many people tend to respond favorably to those who champion their cause with the most zeal, volume or animation (although alas! none of these things actually lend any strength to their arguments. I have known many over the years who believe that shear volume alone is sufficient to win a debate, or to establish their point).
I too, have read the email exchanges between Drs. White and Caner (and Dr. Ascol to a lesser degree) and I have sometimes wished that the tone of the whole exchange was somehow different. But I also know this - written correspondence can be a very poor and/or difficult medium through which to convey one's demeanor, and this email exchange was, I believe, no exception. I have not met Dr. Caner in person and so cannot comment on his character and general deportment towards others. I have met Drs. White and Ascol, and know them to be courteous, Christian gentlemen who hold their doctrine and convictions with no less fervor and determination than Dr. Caner.
You might ask yourself why you approve of Dr.Caner's "no-holds-barred, in your face delivery" from a national pulpit, from which he roundly, deliberately mis-characterized - and then vilified - a host of brethren across a wide swath of the church's history and theology, and then purposefully mis-interpreted Romans 9:10-12 (I say purposefully simply because he is a man of theological degrees and hence, he HAD to know that what he said about that passage was the exact opposite of what it actually says in the text itself - and he said it from behind the "sacred desk" to potentially millions of people!), but you disapprove of Dr. White exercising the same "no-holds-barred" style, even though Dr. White spoke initially in the limited arena of email? Why is that? The answer to this question will tell you much about your own heart, and that can either be a threat or a blessing, depending on how one responds.
I am not certain what you mean by "calling out" Dr. Caner, but disrespect should not be a part of it. Civility and respect among Christians is always in order, and to the degree that it is absent in any of these exchanges, debates and sometime bloviations, then humility would suggest redressing the wrongs in a Christ-honoring way. But honoring Christ (and His word) does not preclude challenges, exhortations, admonitions, rebukes and sometimes biting irony and sarcasm. The fool rebuffs all of these, but the wise are instructed by them and gain wisdom - even when they are less than graciously employed. We would hope Dr. Caner would feel as equally indebted to extend the same level of respect to his elders as he desires from his students. I will continue to pray for your own growth and blessing.
8:25 AM
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7:25 PM
Ergun...Hero:
If I may offer a follow up comment:
I know Dr. White personally and have known him since I was in high school. I have always known him to be courteous and respectful, friendly, and well-thought. He has been a mentor, a professor, and is currently my elder. He has been a friend for many years. He has been inestimable in teaching me throughout these years. I am now married and have children of my own. I still find Dr. White to be a man of high character and integrity.
Yet, Dr. White is also a man who "tells it like it is" and offers no-holds barred defense of the faith. He is highly evangelistic for the gospel and passionate about the Word of God.
The charicatures of Calvinism that Dr. Caner presented as fact (and, with respect, he presents personal, limited anecdotal evidence as universal, axiomatic truths) were responded to and rebutted by Drs. White and Ascol.
Ergun...Hero, the battleground for us Baptists is going to be God's word, and so these discussions will necessarily be exegetical in nature.
Did you see Dr. Caner offering exegetical replies (I distinguish exegetical replies from mere assertion by the fact that the original languages were consulted and teaching drawn clearly from those, rather than simple proof-texting wherein the simple citation of a verse is assumed to mean what the asserter says without acknowledging their own presuppositional baggage).
In my view, hardly unbiased, given my history with Dr. White, only Drs. White and Ascol were addressing the exegesis of Scriptures and then offering corrective history on the matter of the Caners' repeated misunderstanding of the term "hypercalvinist."
Sooner or later, these issues need to be addressed in fairness and in fullness since all of us, to the man, you and myself included, will shout with Luther "unless I am convinced by Scripture, or by evident reason..."
Thus, I pray that this debate goes forward so that honest and intelligent dialogue can proceed.
Forgive the length...and, if you wish further dialogue on these matters, I am more than willing.
4:57 PM
Hello Hero,
I just watched this sermon. I have read the correspondance and agree with much of what you said about Dr. White's tone which is hard to judge. I cringed from the tone of 3 or the 4 emailers. I couldn't get your link to work but found it through google. How the world is today...google...amazing.
Anyway...
I have two words: Straw Men. He built them up, to tear them down. There were no statistics. There were no references to the facts of his charges (i.e. no names of prominent calvinist thinkers, websites, publications). He just accused calvinists of things that I've never heard calvinists say (in a church setting) or read.
Calling any 5 pointer a hypercalvinist is a fallacy. There is a definition to the word and a 5 pointer doesn't line up with that.
I want the truth. I want truthfullness in our pulpits. I want truthful exegesis of scripture. Ergun's handling of romans was not truthful. Paul realy said (and the holy spirit if you will) something different than ergun taught in that passage. Read it in context with paul's sadness for his jewish brothers. It's plain as day that paul is arguing for sovereign choice...even goes so far to anticipate the objection that I have ..."is God unjust then????" EMPHATICALLY NO. He also anticipates the next objection that I have (instinctively) v19 how can he hold us account...or still find fault? I don't know what to say about these things other than that the bible is clearly saying this. The interpretation isn't a question, it's clear. JUST AS IT IS CLEAR THAT WE HAVE TO CHOOSE, and have persevere through our works and that Christ wishes that all men come to salvation. These are all scripture.
I am slow to buy into any "SYSTEM" but I am quick to try and understand the truth of scripture.
I apreciate your humility and honesty on your page here. I wish that the Calvinist queen would renounce her unscrupulous behavior and show humility as well. That is my prayer for all of us.
Thanks for the space. It is nice to get things off one's chest (provided it's not sin!)
Hoping to learn humility well,
Worshipleader
3:49 PM
I should have said:
"our works bear witness to our perseverence"
rather than:
"we persevere through our works"
I don't believe the latter at all and am surprised I stated it that way!
9:37 PM
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