Total Depravity and the Possessed Man of Gerasenes
Well, here we go again. I never thought I would get so caught up the the blogosphere...but this has been an exciting time for me as I am challenged daily in my faith. I frequent the Founders.org blog, Founders Ministries is a ministry of teaching and encouragement promoting both doctrine and devotion expressed in the Doctrines of Grace and their experiential application to the local church, particularly in the areas of worship and witness. I often go and usually stir up trouble due to my own beliefs that are outside of what are taught by Reformed Soteriologists.
After HOURS, and I do mean HOURS, of reading thru blog posts trying to see if anyone had answered my questions, I decided to start posting the questions here, hopefully so we can stick to the questions and not go off on tangents that do not relate to the specific question. I encourage you to blog, whether you consider yourself a Calvinist, "leaky" Calvinist, Arminian, Pelagian, Neo or good 'ol "Whoesoever Will" Biblicist. So on to my first question:
QUESTION: Matthew 8, Mark 5 and Luke 8 are all accounts of a demon possessed man (one account of two men) where Jesus commanded the demon(s) to come out and go into the herd of pigs nearby. Mark 5 has the most interesting account. Verse 6 says that the man saw Jesus from a distance and came running to him:Mark 5 (NIV)
6When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him.
Mark 5 (KJV)
6But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
Mark 5 (NASB)
6Seeing Jesus from a distance, he ran up and bowed down before Him;
Mark 5 (AMP)
6And when from a distance he saw Jesus, he ran and fell on his knees before Him in homage,
Now, the question is this, if the combination of TOTAL DEPRAVITY and IRRESISTABLE GRACE means that in NO way can we make the decision to come to God because of our state - How then, did a man with "many" demons within him, who you would think would try to stay as far away from the son God as possible, and who is in the most depraved state that we could be in, come anyways to the son of God? As a matter of fact, it says he saw and he ran! He must have known he needed Jesus. Was the Holy Spirit doing a work in the man with many unclean spirits?
posted by ErgunIsMyHero at 1:38 PM
12 Comments:
Well that is a very good point, except for the verses after, where it is made clear that it is the spirit inside the man who is bowing before Jesus, not the man himself, for he has no control over himself. I have the NASB, and it states, "7. and shouting with a loud voice, he said, 'What business do we have with each other, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore You by God, do not torment me!' 8. For He had been saying to him, 'Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!'
This exchange leads me to believe that it was the demon who was controlling the actions of the man, not the man himself, and the Bible says that Satan and his demons know who God is and they fear Him.
I am open to any arguments to the contrary.
8:37 AM
if that were true...and the spirits had control of the body...AND they were in fear of torture, why di they go to Jesus...that doesn't make any logical sense.
9:49 AM
I don't know why they did, but obviously they did, because the Bible said they did. The point I was making is that it was not the man coming to Jesus. :)
9:56 AM
actually, the only thing that is obvious is that it was not the man who spoke to Jesus.
10:08 AM
point taken, but by deduction i am assuming it was the demon controlling the body, since the demon was the one talking.
and having taken a long shower after my last comment here, i came up with a possible idea for why the demon would have run to Jesus instead of away. I speculate that possibly, since the demons are afraid of Jesus, and, knowing the nature of God, the demon would have known that there was nowhere it could go that would escape the reach of God, so perhaps it felt as if the only way it could get a good deal out of the situation would be to bow down before Jesus in homage. Just a thought. :)
11:03 AM
Christian Greetings,
If I may offer a response, the demons recognized the Son of God. They are subject to Him are they not? They requested that He not torment them before "the time", and asked if they could enter into the herd of swine (permission was required to do this). This is absolutely clear proof that even the demons are subject to God, that they owe Him obeisance, and that they believe and shutter (James 2:19). Christ delivered this man from the demons and from his sins. That is why when he was clothed and in his right mind he wanted to go with Christ. God worked in his heart by His Spirit to bring this man to His Son. I hope this has contributed to the conversation........
--Jon Unyan
12:16 PM
E-Hero said:
"“TOTAL DEPRAVITY and IRRESISTABLE GRACE means that in NO way can we make the decision to come to God because of our state”
As I said on the Founders blog, total depravity does not mean that man has "no sense" of ability to come to God. There are different senses of ability: constitutional or natural ability and moral ability. Your question presupposes “no sense” of ability to come to God. That’s not what the doctrine of moral inability is saying. Even Satan made a choice to come before God’s throne in the book of Job. It’s just the case that he didn’t come to love and adore him since he is a slave of sin. Demons can recognize the power and authority of God. Even Satan had to ask permission to hurt Job. As Jon mentioned, the demons tremble and fear God according to the book of James. Such fear might cause them to come to God to make requests, but not out of a motive of loving submission.
I think this is the case in the texts you mention. Clearly the man was not in his right mind and in control of himself. Demons were absolutely dominating the man to the point where he was injuring himself. The Demons discerned the true identity of Jesus as the Son of God, so they trembled and made requests not to be immediately punished. Their “worship” was a mere bowing down in fear, not a “worship” of a loving servant.
As far as the condition of the possessed man himself, we don’t know what was going on with his mind and will. We don’t even know to what extent he was self-conscious anymore. When he was addressed, the demons answered. We know nothing about such conditions and experiences (but Ergun Caner might hahahaha I'm just teasing!). We don’t know how he got in that possessed state. All we know is that he was a sinner. As Paul says, he was by nature a child of wrath, even as the rest of lost humanity.
If he quickly came to Jesus, it was only because selfish motives and by the compelling force of the demons within. That’s what the texts seem to show us. The text doesn’t say that he “knew he needed Jesus” (as the words in your question puts it). The texts are not saying he came to “worship” in the sense of bowing down in loving adoration. The demons compelled him to come due to fearful concerns of immediate torment. Sinners can fear punishment, but they don't rightly fear God.
After Jesus cast out the demons by the power of God, he was also delivered from the power of sin and was converted. As a new creature in Christ, he longed to go wherever Jesus went. His new nature or affections made Jesus “Irresistable” to him. That sure sounds like Calvinism to me. At least it's my kind of Calvinism :-)
10:15 PM
I said:
"At least it's my kind of Calvinism :-)"
I should have said:
At least it's my kind of Calvinism, and IT AIN'T LEAKY! :-)
I've corked the holes hahaha
12:15 AM
Hello again,
Tony made some important qualifications to what I said. When I stated the demons owed Him obeisance, I meant that they physically bowed before Him because He is the Son of God, just like one day all men, demons, and angels will bow before Him and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father (Phil. 2:10) However, they did not bow before Him from the heart with a love for Him. Does this not speak of the awesome power and glory of God?! That even the demons acknowledge Him for who He is? Would to God that all men would acknowledge Him before "the time"....
--Jon Unyan
9:11 AM
All great answers...I am putting together a new question hopefully to post by tomorrow! good stuff...I don't know that we can totally rule out the will of the man only because, like I said before, the only thing that is OBVIOUS is that the demon is the one speaking to Jesus.
I guess we will file this away with the mysteries we'll find out about when we get to heaven.
I'll keep this question up if you would like to continue discussing.
Moph - when are you gonna weigh in?
1:05 PM
tony said:
I'll keep this question up if you would like to continue discussing.
me:
that's messed up! :)
1:08 PM
ugh...what I meant to say:
tony said:
(but Ergun Caner might hahahaha I'm just teasing!).
me: that's messed up! :)
6:47 AM
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