The works of the Holy Spirit
I have been doing a very quick study on the Holy Spirit this morning using nothing more than my Bible and the www.Bible.com to look up different versions of the same passages. Now, I know that this is will be very controversial...however, I think that we should take Calvinism with a grain of salt when comparing it directly with the scriptures. Here is what T.U.L.I.P. says about the Holy Spirit:
Irresistible Grace
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God.
Ok, now doing just a search on the Holy Spirit / Holy Ghost / Comforter you find a very clear definition of what His job is:
Jobs of the Holy Spirit:
- He is the Comforter: John 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7
- He is the Spirit of Truth who testifies of Christ (teacher): John 14:26; 15:26
- He is the Sealer of our Salvation to the Day of Redemption: Ephesians 4:30
I just find it funny that we have this whole set of rules about how the Lord actually works in our lives. Do I think that the Holy Spirit can work the way that Calvinism says it can...of course. God is so much larger than our finite minds can even grasp. However, I think that the Bible is clear on the simple things that we should know. That our merciful God, upon our acceptance of His FREE gift gave us One that would replace the earthly presence of Jesus to teach us, to comfort us and to seal our very salvation until He calls us home one day. Amen, Amen and Amen.
posted by ErgunIsMyHero at 7:00 AM
20 Comments:
Now, I know that you are looking for a debate on Calvinism. I'm not interested in a long, vicious, mean spirited debate. However, I will post a comment -
Your post on the work of the Holy Spirit left out a very important role - resurrection, ie: regeneration!
Consider the following passages -
1) Jesus answered and said unto him, "Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God...unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (John 3:3, 5)
2) "And you He made alive who were dead in trespasses and sins...even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved). (Ephesians 2:1, 5)
3) "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5)
I know that you are already familiar with the fact that Irresistable Grace is the doctrine of regeneration of the dead sinner so they are free from the power of sin and death and able to see the Kingdom of God, repent and believe on Jesus Christ for salvatin.
The term "draw" and "called" also speak of this reality. The drawing of the Father in John 6:44 is effectual producing salvation because Jesus said, "...I will raise Him up at the last day."
The "called" in Romans 8:30, Romans 9:11, 24 is the same "calling" spoken by Paul of those who are saved in 1 Cor 1:24, 26-29. This calling is not universal or general because "not many wise, mighty, or noble are called." which of necessity means that not all are called equally.
God bless,
CR
10:11 AM
My posts are not for a debate. I post to work out my own thoughts and to challenge others to look up what they believe and post it. I am probably not qualified enough to debate...but I know what I read and believe.
Good answer. I'll have to read the passages myself before I respond.
12:58 PM
Please accept my apology for assuming "debate" was the motive. I'm going to bed but I am interested in a meaningful diologue on scripture.
God Bless,
CR
7:12 PM
Paige Patterson stated, "I see no biblical evidence for Irresistable Grace." Hugh?
See post at http://christopherredman.blogspot.com
9:59 PM
Good morning CR,
I am still thinking thru your verses...some don't make any sense to me to the discussion. But I will reply by this afternoon with my thoughts.
As for the Irresistable Grace comment by Patterson...I would somewhat agree. Do I think that there is a calling to the unbeliever...yes...but I believe that it is more of a "wooing" of the Spirit. If you believe in Free Will, which you don't, Irresistable Grace has no place in your doctrine. Consider the young rich man in Matthew 19:
16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
18"Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,'[d] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'[e]"
20"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"
21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth
Now, here's me...don't you think that in the presence of the Master of the Universe, he would be just as irresistable? However, the man walked away. He CHOSE to walk away.
Just a thought or two :)
7:19 AM
My good friend, even the disciples abandoned Christ when he was arrested. In John 6, Jesus started with more than 5,000 followers. By the end of the chapter, they had all left and "followed Him no more".
Jesus said to the 12, "Will you leave also?" Peter said, "Lord, where will we go..." Jesus said, "I have I not chosen you, the twelve. But one of you is a devil."
Do a search on the term "called", "calls", and "calling". You will find that it is always in context with salvation, conversion. It is God's call (effectual call) that produces eternal life. It is not general to all men equally but is particular according to God's grace.
Look closely at 1 Cor 1:18-29. The "called" and "calling" is not universal.
CR
9:27 AM
Correction -
Jesus said, "Have I not chosen you, the twelve..."
Sorry,
CR
9:28 AM
CR - to your reference to I Corinthians 1:24:
24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
the word, "called" or "klhtoV" in the greek means, "invited (by God in the proclaimation of the Gospel) to obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom through Christ."
So the word was specific as an invitation. which now just opened up the discussion of election...since a calling is an "invitation" which also carries the meaning that it can be accepted or denied (rejected).
11:41 AM
All men who hear are "invited", few are "chosen".
11:10 AM
Context, context, context -
Look carefully at the term "called" when used in the NT and you will find it always produced salvation, ie: it is "effectual".
If the word is "invitation" then why did Paul say, "not many...are called"? (Not many invited?)
Again, Romans 8:30 "Those whom He predestined, these He also called, and whom He called, these He also justified, and whom He justified, these He also glorified."
The "called" in this verse is not "invitation" unless only those predestined are invited. The natural and consistent reading of the text is that all who are "called" are also justified and glorified.
Also, John 6:44 - "No one can come unto Me unless the Father who sent Me draw him and I will raise him up at the last day."
Again, this "drawing" is effectual producing salvation because Jesus said, "I will raise him up at the last day" which is eternal life in glory.
Note the usage of "I will raise him up at the last day in John 6:39 and 40. Both are unmistakle in their application of eternal life.
Again, Jesus is not saying that everyone is "drawn" by the Father unless "everyone" will be glorified.
The same interpretive principle is found in Romans 8:30.
You are right that the subject of "Irrisistible Grace" brings up the subject of election. This is unavoidable if the "calling" and "drawing" are effectual to salvation and not universal to every man, woman, and child.
God Bless,
CR
5:41 AM
I agree CR.
The verse I was referring to does teach that a general call goes to all, but only some are chosen to hear, understand and believe.
Mr Ergunisazero misses the distinction between the call of the Gospel and the opening of ears to hear it. Folks in this condition have no explination for why Christ spoke in parables.
4:39 PM
Hey E-hero,
I'm still here, just not posting as much. Been caught up in home renovations, which always, always scarf up more time and money than initially anticipated...aarrrrgh. But it looks good when yer done.
Maybe I'll jump in the discussion in a few days, we'll have to see...
7:17 PM
good to see you Moph!
7:36 AM
As you probably know, your list of jobs of the Holy Spirit is seriously lacking. Your list will not be sufficient by doing word studies for explicit references to the "Holy Spirit." Sometimes He is indirectly referenced, such as in the following verse:
NKJ Acts 16:14 Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.
Now, "The Lord" may or may not reference the person of Jesus, but if it does, then He opened her heart BY MEANS OF THE SPIRIT. Notice the causal priority. First her heart is opened, and then she heeds the things spoken by Paul.
Also, she and others may have first heard with the hearing of the ear (what Calvinists have described as the external call), but then she heard with an open heart (what Calvinists have labeled the internal or efficacious call). The Holy Spirit does not open the heart of everyone to hear, and the Spirit may even block Paul from speaking in certain areas (Acts 16:6). However, everyone that hears the gospel is externally and seriously called by God through the Spirit and by his servants.
Once Lydia's heart was opened, she found the message irresistable and voluntarily embraced the Lord by faith. The doctrine of Irresistable Grace is not antithetical to willful responses to the Lord. It's just the case that a changed heart will inevitably cling to the Lord because it discerns his worth and beauty.
12:39 PM
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1:03 PM
CR said:
"Paige Patterson stated, "I see no biblical evidence for Irresistable Grace."
EC-Hero said:
"As for the Irresistable Grace comment by Patterson...I would somewhat agree."
Me now:
Somewhat agree? Either 1) there is or 2) there is not ANY evidence for Irresistable Grace. Patterson says he sees NO evidence for it. However, Paul says:
NKJ Romans 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
CR said:
"The "called" in this verse is not "invitation" unless only those predestined are invited. The natural and consistent reading of the text is that all who are "called" are also justified and glorified."
Me now:
CR is basically correct on this verse (but needs some qualifications). The predestinated are not MERELY invited (even though they are invited by the external call just as the rest). The predestined are at some point effectually called by means of the external call or invitation. The above verse requires a distinction in senses of “calling” when compared with other verses. If “calling” ALWAYS refers to the universal invitation that goes out to everyone that hears the gospel (a legitimate sense of "calling" in the bible), then they will all be justified and glorified according to Rom. 8:30. There is an unbreakable chain and logic in Paul’s thought in the above verse because he’s dealing with the effectual sense of calling and the will of God. The verse must be dealt with, particularly in the case of seminary presidents who see "NO biblical evidence for Irresistable Grace."
It's a shame to realize that Patterson has influenced Caner in this sort of dogmatism. He could have just said that he sees some evidence for it, but he doesn't think it's conclusive or sufficient to prove the case. However, He chose to speak as dogmatically as possible.
1:13 PM
CR said:
"I'm not interested in a long, vicious, mean spirited debate."
For those who don't realize it, the above is Calvinistic code language that actually means:
"I am very interested in a long, vicious, mean spirited debate."
HAHAHAHA just teasing! ;-)
1:23 PM
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2:05 PM
Incidently,since I went to Criswell College, I heard Dr. Danny Akin say that Paige Patterson was a three point Calvinist. He apparently affirmed Total Depravity, Unconditional Election and Perseverance of the Saints back in 1992.
If one listens to his recent interaction with Al Mohler at the SBC meeting, one will hear that he wants to affirm an "effectual call" (what he himself called it after hearing Mohler) and deny irresistable grace at the same time. It seems quite strange and incoherent to me. I was hoping that Mohler would challenge him on the point, but it apparently wasn't a format in which he wanted to do that. Given Patterson's VERY dogmatic statements in denial of Irresistable Grace, his straw man arguments and incoherent positions should have been challenged. He was allowed to throw theological punches without getting any in return. I guess the "mean" Calvinists would have seemed "mean" again if they openly challenged his incoherence and misrepresentations.
Ann Coulter (not that I am a fan of hers) has recently made the observation that political liberals like to let victims speak liberal talking points because these victims are untouchable (the victims have "liberal infallibility," as she puts it), hence the Jersey Girls (their husbands died on 9/11) on Iraq and other anti-Bush issues etc. If one dares to criticize the Jersey Girls, then you are further victimizing them.
In a similar way, I wonder if some Baptists seem to liken themselves to past victims of Calvinistic abuse so they can be beyond criticism. If you speak against their soteriology as one who is Calvinistic, you are thereby associating yourself with those who abused them in the past and further victimizing them in your "meanness." This may be why Caner keeps bringing up anabaptist issues and Servetus. If you speak against Caner, you are thereby associated with heretic burning and such things. Instead of politically liberal infallibility, he gains theological infallibility by such associations, to borrow from Coulter's observation.
2:13 PM
wow. And I only mean wow...a lot to take in.
6:46 AM
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